29 replies to this topic

[Greg P]

"Greg and/or Val - doesn't the group ring have more to do with the phenomena you describe than the standard? "

Brad, absolutely! No doubt in my mind. The group ring AND the big National Specialties, Terrier Specialties and premier shows like Westminster.

The winners of these events are the dogs that breeders advertise and run the ads for. They become the paradigm and the vision for other breeders to aspire to. The breeders aren't looking at function as much as what they need to breed to win. As judges start to place the dogs in group, other judges feel "safe" to do the same. The "dog of the day" starts affecting the look for others who want to repeat the success.

As for the standard, how can an AKC judge actually correctly make his/her judgement? They read the ideal, yet rarely, if ever see the ideal in the show ring. This makes their job IMHO completely subjective on what they like on any given day, and generally the "ideal" dog gets dumped if any competition at all is entered at shows.

So then as exhibitor /breeders we sit around and justify why we've blown by the height standard by romanticizing about the different sized dogs the crofters used and always point back to balance. (Yes, he's a big boy, but he's balanced!)

Cairns haven't been huge group and BIS winners in the past. If they start winning more at these levels with import bloodstock, the changes may accelerate.

I don't think it would be so alarming to me, but I've seen examples of huge Cairns winning in Canada (Swedish stock), and the breeding creep form Denmark and Sweden is quickly starting to change the mechanics and the vision of the ideal Cairn (US type standard).

Now, all that said, my paradigm and perfect cairn image comes from imagining an AKC Champion doing it's work under ground. Do I know how a crofter in reality worked the dogs? I've never seen it and have only read about it. So admittedly I romanticize what the dog should be doing as they persistently work vermin.....digging and crawling through tunnels and dens. I just think it's harder for a 15 inch dog to get there than a 10 inch dog. Everyone now (exhibitor and judge) looks down on the little guy who may be the one to get the job done!

I would love to see the standard upheld (and never change), but at this point feel it's more practical to attempt to cap future height infractions with a disqualification.

(It's me...Greg )

Edited by Greg P, 25 March 2008 - 03:56 PM.

[dunraeven]

Greg and Brad -- thanks for your comments! I agree that producing a big winner is often the goal rather than maintaining breed type. Because of exactly that, hardly anyone remembers what a truly proportional American Cairn Terrier is supposed to look like anymore.

Another problem is that we don't have many terrier judges, much less Cairn Terrier breeder judges, in the conformation ring. Other national breed club sites (e.g., http://www.shihtzu.org/) post Judge's Education articles on their websites, is there any reason the CTCA can't as well? We've all seen conformation judges who pick the largest, fluffiest head in the ring and ignore horrible movement, or choose the popular winner (since it MUST be a good dog to win so much, right?). They're not prejudiced or stupid or evil -- I'm convinced they just don't know any better. It's OUR job to train them. The membership has to first decide on a standard, then work to defend it.

[bradl]

Quote

Other national breed club sites (e.g., http://www.shihtzu.org/) post Judge's Education articles on their websites, is there any reason the CTCA can't as well?

No technical reasons.

[PeppersMom]

Do those swedish dogs really have necks that long or is it an illusion caused by the grooming on the neck?

[hallswel]

I would hate to see the smaller Cairns disappear. I have both large and small. Sugar just meets the standard while Harley is larger. Both are sound Cairns. I was told by several people that the winning goes in cycles. For 4 or 5 years the larger ones win then the next couple of years you see the smaller ones become popular with judges.

[Greg P]

The length of neck is not an illusion.

[A and J]

cant say that i like the look of the swedish dogs, there are none like that, that i've seen, in the province i'm from. i like my short little cairn!

a

[Cairnmania]

Well, the Swedish Cairns are gorgeous - but to my eye the neck and body are too long. Grooming also seems to be done to exaggerate those points, especially no "skirt" whatsoever.

English Cairns tend to be a bit bigger and a bit higher on the leg than American Cairns - but they are still much more similar than different. Probably why so many UK Cairns are imported to the US for breeding.

My understanding is that in the UK the standard was changed to recognize the fact that Cairns are larger than they were 50'ish years ago - and the U.S. has declined to follow suit - not because there isn't awareness that Cairns are larger - but because of the human tendency to keep pushing the limits. The fact is, a Cairn that exactly meets the breed standard in the US is likely to be seen as small and overshadowed by larger dogs.

In terms of function, I have two English Cairns - 'cause I live in England :-) One was let go by her breeder because she was too small by English standards to show - she would, however, be absolutely fine in the US to show in terms of size. When I showed two English breeders a photo of the U.S.-bred Cairn I finished to Champion - there comment was "so and so" always breeds dogs too short on the leg. (Although a US-bred dog, her sire was an English import and and her pedigree contained quite a few UK dogs.) She definitely was not consider short in the US - in fact - she was just about middle of the road in everything (except her sparkling show personality!)

So my two English Cairns - one is shorter on the leg than most English dogs, Abby. Rudi, my other Cairn is an x-show dog; by English standards he is an absolute stunner. In fact, by any standard he is a stunner. His problem is he is a wimp and so the show world was not the best place for him. Rudi can outrun and outjump Abby - I am amazed at how athletic and powerful he is and how well he moves. What he cannot do as well as Abby is corner - Abby can change direction on a dime - Rudi needs a bit more room to get going in the other direction. Cairns were not bred to run with the horses, for example, like Border Terriers. They were bred to scurry among rocks and in tight spaces to bolt vermin - so I guess I'd have to opt for the shorter leg and medium length back (Cairns should not be cobby after all, not like Westies).

Greg - my first show dog was a GSD. When I wanted a second show dog they are why I chose Cairns - I wanted a breed with stable, good temperaments, not exaggerated, one recognizable type (or only slight variations), less political, more owner-handlers, etc., etc. etc. Plus, I thought Cairns had a very high cuteness and cheerfulness factor. I'd hate to think Cairns are headed in the same direction as GSDs.

[Greg P]

Cairnmania, on Apr 14 2008, 02:28 AM, said:

Well, the Swedish Cairns are gorgeous - but to my eye the neck and body are too long. Grooming also seems to be done to exaggerate those points, especially no "skirt" whatsoever.

Actually I agree. They are beautiful dogs. I just wish I was looking at a different breed.......not a cairn terrier.

Cairnmania, on Apr 14 2008, 02:28 AM, said:

English Cairns tend to be a bit bigger and a bit higher on the leg than American Cairns - but they are still much more similar than different. Probably why so many UK Cairns are imported to the US for breeding.

I think this is good insight. I agree that they are more similar than different. US lines came from the UK. It seems in the cairn development that the DG and DR family lines proved to be the most popular. The modern US breeder gravitated toward DGS lines(influenced by Splinters of Twobees). It seems both UK and US breeders would occasionally throw in an "I" line dog, which gave them some leg. Perhaps the UK gravitated more toward the "I" line which caused the dogs to get bigger?

Cairnmania, on Apr 14 2008, 02:28 AM, said:

Greg - my first show dog was a GSD. When I wanted a second show dog they are why I chose Cairns - I wanted a breed with stable, good temperaments, not exaggerated, one recognizable type (or only slight variations), less political, more owner-handlers, etc., etc. etc. Plus, I thought Cairns had a very high cuteness and cheerfulness factor. I'd hate to think Cairns are headed in the same direction as GSDs.

Which is exactly why a "standard" was created. What's wrong with honoring the standard? Honoring the past breeders who created the standard who bred and exhibited toward an ideal?

The CTCA sent out a cairn terrier "movement" video (remastered in digital format) with the spring newsletter. The piece was done in 1968. I thought it was remarkable how the cairn terrier by large has retained it's integrity as a breed. In fact, as I look in compendiums and catalogs from the '40's, we still look like cairn terriers.

Yes, we have become more refined in our show grooming, but away from the show ring most cairns continue to look like cairns.

I am alarmed, however, as to how quickly the cairn terrier profile is changing. There appears to be a movement by breeders throughout the world to exaggerate and stylize the scruffy tykes. The biggest physical changes seem to be engineered by Scandinavian breeders, who even appear like they are adopting a new "show pose". I saw an example of that show pose in the newly issued 2007 CTCA yearbook used on a US champion (Swedish lines). As we see and get used to greater angulation and poses to show off that angulation, what's next? Like you, I do not want to see the cairn go the way of the GSD.

In my opionion, cairn breeders and cairn breed clubs need to become proactive and be intentional about either preserving our current cairn profile, adopting a new cairn profile or pushing for the creation of a new wire haired terrier breed. Breeders must somehow get control of size, or the cairn will continue to grow to become a mid sized terrier --with an entirely different profile. Without intentionality, cairns will morph by default. The internet and electronic communicaiton will speed up this process.

Some people say we have to "change". I talked to a breeder who feared if our standard doesn't change, we won't be "competitive" in the "world".

I ask why change? Why not honor the vision and the standard our pioneering breeders adopted so that 40 years into the future, the cairn still resembles the cairn on the 1968 video and photos of the 1948 Champions from the Compendium of Champions ?

[Aimfor]

Hello from Australia!

this is a topic that is of HUGE conflict here at present...there seems to be a great amount of difference here in size too in the ring...we have the US lines which produce the smaller side of the scale dogs, the english and now we are getting alot of the great big Swedish dogs....

Yes they are very large and I do myself believe to be a tad over angulated at the turn of stifle, in fact some moving long, low and fast like a sheherd, I believe mixed with the two other 'types' could down the track mingle quite nicely. We tend to see alot of really straight fronts and reads here, so i believe this swedish stock could help that.

Its kind of like everyone here goes "what height in the standard??" Its a total mix of animals either being tiny or built like horses! lol

[Marty & Sherry]

I thought I would revive this topic as we had an "experience" with judging this weekend. We entered Emmy in a B Match Saturday in which she won group. The Terrier judge seemed to like her even though she needs better grooming. She overcame our short comings by preforming very well in the ring. She kept her head up, although not truly loose lead she didn't pull & had that nice little bouncy thing going.

She lost in the Best of Match to a Clumber (which I have seen much better examples of BTW, too leggy IMHO). Anyway we talked to the judge after the match and she said she thinks Emmy is too long & that it will hurt her in the ring.

Here is the maddening part. She is 9 3/4 tall and 14 1/2 long (by the formula in the above post she is about as close to 60/40 as you can get). She is nearly perfect according to the standard measurementwise. The thing that I do see is that she is just barely over 12 lbs. Maybe that makes her appear longer than she really is in proportion???

We are going to start showing her for real next month as we are not going to let one judges interpretation stop us. If nothing else we will help other Cairns get points! My question is are we going to run into this much? Is the cobbier Cairns going to be the trend even if they are way out of proportion to the standard? Are the judges trying to turn Cairns into bigger Norwiches? Could this just be an overworked judge that got "lucky" enough to have to stick around for the B Match final & really isn't qualified for all breeds?

[Greg P]

How old is Emmy? Is she a puppy or fairly mature?

The good news is I have seen very nice "small" proportionatly correct cairns go on to win an AKC championship. Sometimes it takes a longer campaign. A sure fire test to know if your cairn is correct, and not consistently winning is to see how many "bridesmaid" (otherwise known as Reserve Winners Bitch) wins she receives along the way.

The smaller cairn may have a problem winning many BOB's and big show wins. However, if you have a correct cairn, show her with pride!

As for judging, it is subjective. Sometimes the better dog loses because the inferior dog is a better showman. Some all breed judges know cairns better than others and who knows what they are looking at.

Most every (good) dog has its day. It's all part of the game. Be prepared for victory and heartache. Above all, always sincerely congratulate the winner when the judge picks someone else.

At any rate, she was picked first in the terrier group. Nicely done!

Edited by Greg P, 01 February 2009 - 08:54 PM.

[Hillscreek]

I was very interested to read these comments.
When I came to look for a Cairn Terrier I was very surprised to see a number of dogs showing who seemed quite large and square with a shortish neck and apparently round heads.
I was thinking about the smaller more scruffy looking Cairns I remembered from my childhood in England many many years ago.
I see that the round looking heads are mainly from the grooming. The rest I suppose must be current fashion which seems to guide who wins in many breeds in the show ring.
I think the pup I have will be bigger than those I remember but I'm delighted to find the special Cairn nature remains: so smart and independent and loving. And I see how flexible and agile he is as he investigates all dark places and tunnels he finds. Not to mention how excellently fast he can dig a hole!

[PeppersMom]

I have heard that as far as function, the Cairn needs to be able to "bend" in the back bone to navigate through tunnels. I have been told a longer body is more functional. I had a short bodied red boy that did not bend in this way.. My larger boy is 11 3/4 " at the shoulder but visibly longer....longer neck for peeking? I'm not so sure about that one. Remember the Cairn needs to cover long distances running while maintaining stamina..they were used in packs..not sure the functionality of a long neck.

[Hez]

I would be really interested to know if the bigger dogs are more likely to be male. My cairn now about 18months is just over 11kg. haven't mesured him, but am often told by people he is one of the biggest cairns they have seen. I have meet a very large chunk of his immediate breed lines and did notice that the dogs were deff larger and heavier by far than the bitches. His lines are mostly sweedish (Raskins) with a few UK and US lines thrown in (mainly further away)

His grandfather, a sweddish import is an Aus ch and has nearly completed his earth dog title last time I spoke to the breader. He is well on the large side, on par with my boy. I also remember him being v solid like Gus. My dog might be big - But fat he is not! I feel like if Gus was any smaller, well he would just be a coloured westie..

I've seen one of his litter mates shown and have noticed, a lot of how long the neck looks seems to have to do with how they are presented. Here there seems to be a habit of really yanking the head up and out rather than letting the dog stand at a natural attention. Its almost like you can teach a dog to have a long neck - I know that sounds obsurd but while Gus and his brother look v similar and I can see that Gus has a neck, he certainly doesn't resemble a swan when he is running around, but put him on a table and yank his head and suddenly I feel the need to run away in case he sticks his neck out and honks at me!

And I would suggest Gus uses his neck to look over his shoulder when he is running away with a pair of my underwear, without it he probably wouldn't be able to keep running straight!