29 replies to this topic

[Idaho Cairns]

Another reason why it is a bit easier for me Melissa is I am rarely dealing with an adult dog--most of the "rolling" I do is when my dogs are young and normally involves biting behaviors and is used to reinforce the "no" command. Clearly it is much easier to put a pup on its side than an adult dog. I can only think of one or two times that I have had to put an adult dog over so, your point is well taken--a pup is much easier to handle and the results are probably faster than when you are applying it to a young dog.
I have thought a lot about why there is such a dearth of domestic dog behavioral studies and I think it might have something to do with the plethora of breeds, each with their own unique characteristics as well as universal traits--common to all canines. I suspect it is just too hard to get the kind of longitudinal research when you have to sort out the unique and general amongst all those breeds. Scientists hate to generalize, especially when confronted with all that spread of genetics which you don't run across in wild animals--where the survival of the fittest has kind of narrowed the number of exemplars for them to study.
Who knows what kind of generalized "dog" would emerge if all our domestic breeds had to compete with each --guess it would be something like a coyote, dingo, or wolf.
I was unaware that Texas A&M offered that type of curriculum--it must be relatively new because a few years back I tried really hard to find a School of veterinary medicine that offered more than a class or two on domestic animal behavior and couldn't find one. None seemed to offer anything like a specialty emphasis in pet animal behavior. I'll take a look at their curriculum and see what they are doing--thanks for the info.

P.S. I took the liberty of looking up the number of Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorists in the U.S. and foreign countries and there are 52 individuals with that designation. These are Vets who specialize in behavior problems with pet animals. Most States had no individuals with the designation, there were nine in California, two in New York, four in Canada, a couple in Australia. I conclude that these academically trained and experienced pet behaviorists are few and far between.

Edited by Idaho Cairns, 27 December 2011 - 11:59 PM.

[pkcrossley]

"I have thought a lot about why there is such a dearth of domestic dog behavioral studies and I think it might have something to do with the plethora of breeds, each with their own unique characteristics as well as universal traits--common to all canines."

that sure makes sense. i think we are all in agreement that many generalizations we meet outside this forum about "dog" behavior and training apply awkward if at all to terriers. in my view most terrier-specific generalizations or techniques apply well to cairns, but there might be people who would even disagree with that.

if Eli is really giving no signal at all, i would investigate a medical issue (i thought it was probably ruled out by the fact that only this one individual son was ever being attacked, and never anybody else). dominance would almost require a signal of some kind, otherwise it makes no sense. the dog wishing to dominate trains his subordinates to react to a signal and back off or go away or perform some other subordinate action. a dog who just attacks without any warning doesn't teach subordinate behavior to anybody, he just causes everybody to be gone. the signal might be very subtle (so subtle that humans would never get it, even if dogs do), but if this is dominant behavior, it has to be there. without it, i would suspect a neurological issue.

[BetsyNoodle]

Idaho Cairns, on 27 December 2011 - 11:22 PM, said:

Another reason why it is a bit easier for me Melissa is I am rarely dealing with an adult dog--most of the "rolling" I do is when my dogs are young and normally involves biting behaviors and is used to reinforce the "no" command. Clearly it is much easier to put a pup on its side than an adult dog. I can only think of one or two times that I have had to put an adult dog over so, your point is well taken--a pup is much easier to handle and the results are probably faster than when you are applying it to a young dog.
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I so agree, Idaho.
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I have thought a lot about why there is such a dearth of domestic dog behavioral studies and I think it might have something to do with the plethora of breeds, each with their own unique characteristics as well as universal traits--common to all canines. I suspect it is just too hard to get the kind of longitudinal research when you have to sort out the unique and general amongst all those breeds. Scientists hate to generalize, especially when confronted with all that spread of genetics which you don't run across in wild animals--where the survival of the fittest has kind of narrowed the number of exemplars for them to study.
Who knows what kind of generalized "dog" would emerge if all our domestic breeds had to compete with each --guess it would be something like a coyote, dingo, or wolf.
I was unaware that Texas A&M offered that type of curriculum--it must be relatively new because a few years back I tried really hard to find a School of veterinary medicine that offered more than a class or two on domestic animal behavior and couldn't find one. None seemed to offer anything like a specialty emphasis in pet animal behavior. I'll take a look at their curriculum and see what they are doing--thanks for the info.
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You are very welcome. Dr. Friend, a behaviorist at A&M, is very good, but according to a family member who is a student there, you have to push to design a curriculum if you want to primarily work with companion animals. A&M's focus has always been primarily on livestock, but they also do behavioral research on various circus animals and dogs. If I'm not mistaken, Dr. Friend has an interest in animal cognition and learning. My cousin, the vet, tellls me the hot topic for research at many vet schools is canine cancer, and how it affects some breeds more than others. God knows, we need more research in that area.
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P.S. I took the liberty of looking up the number of Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorists in the U.S. and foreign countries and there are 52 individuals with that designation. These are Vets who specialize in behavior problems with pet animals. Most States had no individuals with the designation, there were nine in California, two in New York, four in Canada, a couple in Australia. I conclude that these academically trained and experienced pet behaviorists are few and far between.

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What a shame, Idaho. I suspect (and hope) there will be more behaviorists in the future. Thanks for all this information! It is great to finally have all this info about certified animal behaviorists posted.

Melissa
P.S. I replied to all your comments inside the quote box. Not sure why the last comment showed up outside.

Edited by BetsyNoodle, 28 December 2011 - 11:38 AM.

[hheldorfer]

Based on my personal experience, I agree that there is always a signal before a dog attacks. There were several tiffs between Buffy and Ziggy when Ziggy was first introduced into our home - all initiated by Buffy due to territorial issues. When these confrontations became serious (and we could definitely tell when they crossed the line), we immediately separated the two and held Buffy down until she settled. Once Buffy understood that attacking Ziggy wasn't acceptable and that we were in charge, the aggression lessened considerably and is now practically nonexistent.

During this process we watched both dogs carefully for signs of impending aggression and we discovered Buffy's signal, which we refer to as "stink eye". It's a barely perceptible change in the attitude of her head, combined with a baleful stare. When Buffy felt that Ziggy had overstepped his bounds, this look said "Go ahead, make my day." Ziggy, not being a well-socialized dog, would ignore the look and go on his merry way, and then . . . Pow! Buffy would fly across the room to attack him. To this day, stink eye can prevent Ziggy from entering a room or jumping onto the couch; it can shoo him away from a treat or a toy from ten feet away. So Buffy successfully trained Ziggy to react to something no more noticeable than a slightly raised eyebrow.

[Kathryn]

I'm also of a mind not to roll any of our dogs. Either we didn't do it well, or cairns are not the best bet for this form of control. Allie was a very stubborn and determined pup when young, and Steve read about and tried the roll on her for some early mishap. She fought for more than 8 minutes (I timed them) before I simply called a halt. We moved to positive reinforcement for good behavior and complete ostricizing (in another closed door room) when she misbehaved. She was raised right by her mom, I believe, and has responded well to these systems. She hates being away from the "pack." She loves positive reinforcement. I think sometimes our dogs just start behaving well, for the most part, and we forget to give them the encouragement they really need to thrive. I try to remember to still give her the encouragement (as well as the occasional treat) just for behaving well in a regular ole 14-year-old dog way.
I'm not sure how T Bone was raised, but I am betting he was a mill dog with an inexperienced mom. Perhaps sold way too early? He has always been a challenge, and doesn't read signals from other dogs well. (Ask Demps...). We would not roll him because he doesn't seem to read signals well. Instead, we keep him within a very small parameter of approved behaviors, and separate him if anything else shows up. He does spend more time in "jail" than Allie ever has. He seems to need it to calm down and stay on the narrow path.
I don't think there's a great set of instructions that works for all cairns. Good luck with Eli, because it is clear you love him and want him to stay in your house as a good dog. We've had the dog attacks here with T Bone and it is so scary. And harder to figure out what to do when you are afraid you are signaling fear to the dog. I do think a short leash -- both following Brad's concrete suggestion and also figuratively -- are warranted here. When in company, Eli needs to be watched closely for a while, and probably always. (T Bone is...). It means he won't get the freedoms you would love to give him, but he will get to live with you. And that's the important part, after all. Both son and dog in the house, and no one bitting, right?
Allie is sending a stern warning to Eli to shape up and behave.
T Bone doesn't have a clue what she's talking about...

Edited by Kathryn, 28 December 2011 - 04:14 PM.

[Idaho Cairns]

Rolling and positive reinforcement aren't mutually exclusive--I use both. Fortunately I can count on both hands the number of times I" have had to employ "the roll" on any of my dogs. It is not a violent thing at all--just firm and to the point, which combined with the verbal command, is efficient and effective. Most behavior mod is done with "+ rein". In the case of Eli, we really do have to make a distinction--physically attacking a human to the point of drawing blood and attacking another dog simply aren't the same thing in terms of outcomes--the consequences of having a pet that bites people are too laden with danger for the dog and the owner to even think about learning the "clues"--that luxury simply doesn't exist. If there was ever a case for rolling, the immediate restraint of the dog with a dominant move, this would be it.

[mrseggcup]

Very intereting discussion we have going here. I'm off to work but I will think about things today and get back to this later!

[Terrier lover]

Interesting thread. I can only relate to my experience with Jock. He loves all uprights especially the small variety, however he does have his limits and certainly lets me know about it. He absolutely hates anything done to his mouth, i.e., inspecting teeth, and giving any kind of meds by mouth. I know this is all due to to the fact that he had most of his upper molars pulled out around 6 yrs ago. So in his world doing anything to his mouth is going to lead to pain. He will bite and bite hard if I even try to start anything close or in his mouth. I have tried putting him on his side but that does not work at all. Sure he will lie there like a log, but the minute I let him go its back to square one. He is afraid. And how do you convince him that next time he wont wake up with a painful mouth again.

I wonder if the attacks are coming from a fearful place instead of an aggresive one? Has something happened that Eli has been made afraid of, even something innocent in our eyes but a major no no in this Cairns world? Has someone that looks like a family member (clothes, hats etc) ever hurt or scared Eli? Has Eli ever been in a boarding kennel, a pet sitter or ?

[Ivysmom]

I agree with Terrier Lover--it may come from a fearful place. I do believe there is some type of trigger. It may just take some time to find it. I have, myself have done the roll on Ivy when she is out of control on a leash. It really has not done a whole lot of good. I cannot see to find a way to lessen her anger/fear when she is on a leash....

[Lynn in TN]

I was always uncomfortable with rolling Kelly. I was afraid I would accidentally hurt her, and she new I was so it seemed to make her worse, until one day she wanted to play(puppy biting stage) I was done she wasn't she jumped up and bit the inside of my thigh the really sensitive part of the thigh. The pain was awful and before I even new what I was doing I dropped down on my knees rolled her over and growled an awful growl. She was in shock and went completely limp and didn't move and neither did the kids for that matter the growl scared the kids. lol I haven't had any more trouble with her biting since that day now if I could just get her to quit barking when I say and come every time I call I would be doing great. It wasn't because I hurt her even the kids said I was gentle but I had enough and was serious.

[mrseggcup]

So much to think about! We won't be rolling him when an attack occurs. It's way too sudden and nasty. Safety first, separate, yell, banish. I think that's all we can handle. I think it's territorial. First attack was Eli's perception that DS might take the pig's ear (he wouldn't). Another attack was when Eli and I were settled in my bedroom for the night and my son opened the door to say goodnight. He didn't barge in, just came in. Those attacks are easier to understand. The last two were pretty much sudden, out of the blue, the last one in close proximity to the bully sticks. No signal that I could see and I'm pretty intuitive when it comes to dogs and babies. I'm a pediatric nurse and they call me a baby whisperer. I realize I might be missing a signal, but there doesn't appear to be one. Eli seems disoriented and confused after an attack and I wondered about the neurological possibilities, but as it was pointed out, he only attacks DS1. We don't have any vet visits coming up and I doubt any MRIs or EEGs would show anything. I will bring this up if we do end up at the vet for anything.

I think my first step will be to enroll Eli in obedience. He is perfect with house breaking and perfect with the Invisible Fence, good on leash, and not the least bit destructive; but I haven't required much from him beyond that. I think he thinks he and I are co-Alphas. It's sort of a subtle attitude he has which I attributed to terrierism.

There is nothing with hats or fragrances or abuse or teasing as far as DS goes. He is a smart, funny, kind, hardworking college student. Never been in any trouble, never hurt anyone or anything. He's a musical theater major. A quite, gentle soul. My other son is much bigger and much louder. Go figure. I don't understand it.

So I will go to the obedience school, talk to them, and enroll him if it looks like they can help. I will be good for both of us to get out more.

I appreciate you comments!

[pkcrossley]

if it is really, absolutely true that eli has lots of opportunities to attack other people besides DS1 and has never ever done so, i wouldn't worry too much about a medical issue and would concentrate on treating it behaviorally. many perfectly normal cairns look disoriented (and more rarely remorseful) after frenzying out on somebody. my dog always looked like, oh goodness, what happened? who did that? as i said earlier, it might mean retraining more people than just eli. for some reason eli considers DS1 a threat and may just really want him gone, not necessarily to train him as a subordinate. i think that with observation (probably by other people) and your intuition you will find an answer, not necessarily to causes but to remedies. basics may be important --NILIF, focus on you as sole alpha, rewards for positive behavior, yadda yadda.i also don't think that your earlier idea of restricting contact between eli and DS1 is a a bad one --so long as it is for purposes of resetting eli's attitude to DS1, not to separate them permanently. eli has to accept and respect the fact that you say what goes, not he. this is very hard for terriers to accept and is not consonant with their natural worldview. something that you may never understand gave him the idea that the time had come to make a move on DS1. re-arrange his world, and his assumptions/pre-occupations may change too.

[IGotAHome]

Boy am I glad the pc is working again. I just have to respond to this topic.

Since I've had Malcolm I've found the standard dog training techniques don't work. Malcolm is unlike any other dog I've had. Even the methods that work for others on this forum don't work with Malcolm. Or I am not doing them correctly. Even if veterinary dog behaviorists discover the secrets of dog behavior, I'm not sure it would apply to Cairns.

Idaho Cairns : "I have thought a lot about why there is such a dearth of domestic dog behavioral studies and I think it might have something to do with the plethora of breeds, each with their own unique characteristics as well as universal traits--common to all canines." Very well said Idaho. Sometimes I think the only canine thing about Malcolm is the front teeth. Malcolm can be more like a cat than a dog.

Mrseggcup you mentioned DS is a gentle soul. In the animal kingdom the weak are prey and dinner. I'm thinking the animal version of gentle means weak. This is just a thought from someone who is no expert. Could it be Eli sees DS as the weak member of your herd, like a lion spots a weak gazelle and sees dinner? Not to say Eli wants to kill and eat DS, but does he see DS as a creature that it is ok to attack just because he has a gentle nature?

I see such a strong hunting instinct in Malcolm. More than any other dog I've known. Never seen a dog run up a tree after a squirrel like Malcolm will. So I wonder if some of that "eat or be eaten" instinct is still present in our dogs. BTW, Malcolm likes to attack people, haven't been able to stop this. I hope you find a solution. Sorry I have nothing to offer aside from extreme speculation.

Please forgive me for putting this all in one post. I never know when this pc will quit working.

Ivysmom I'm sorry the trainer didn't work out for you. I was really hoping you found someone that could work with Ivy since some of your comments were a little positive. I brought Malcolm to Petsmart for an evaluation one time to see what the trainer had to say. The trainer never got a chance to say anything. Malcolm raised such a fuss and started with that ear piercing Cairn screech. I told the trainer I don't know about you but I can't take this so we will have to go. That screech really does hurt my ears.

I hope people don't get the wrong idea about Cairns because of what I say about Malcolm. He is extremely aggressive for any breed of dog. A snarling police dog looks like a playful puppy next to Malcolm. I've met other Cairns and Westies. They are not like this. Even the Cairns on this site aren't like this. The vet calls it being protective. I call it insane psycho killer. He is this way on or off leash. One of these days I might figure it out. This is the way Malcolm is, not the way Cairns are, and not the way any other breed is either.

[Kathryn]

I think obedience school is a really good step. Our instructor taught us how to give T Bone a treat in a way that didn't have him taking our fingers with it -- sharp little teeth on that dog! That alone was worth the price. And of course we all learned a whole lot more. We continued past the basic course just because it was so much fun to be with dogs and dog people once a week. It was also good focus for our dogs, DH, and me.

I hope you and Eli have a good experience too, and it results in some behavior changes on his part. Our dogs are such a big part of our lives that it really takes a toll to worry about them.

Good luck!

[kjwarnold]

Woof, Eli, dude! Packy here. What's up with the attacks? I think your plans for world dominance have gone to your head. Buddy, you got to know when you've got a good thing and just go with it. My Mom has rolled me and, dude, it's just like when you were a puppy with your fur mom and she did it. You know right away you messed up. I think you'll like obedience class. I loved it and was at the top of my class. Kirby was at the top of his class, too, because Cairns are smarter than any other dogs there. Mom and I were a good team but it really showed me who is boss. That's okay though, because now that I know what's what, our world is in balance and I know what to expect. So anyway, Eli, keep up the CUR work, but don't spoil it for the rest of us by going all Rambo anymore.

Your Friend, Packy