29 replies to this topic

[mrseggcup]

Eli's upright here. I am really upset with my normally lovable Cairn right now and I am at a loss. Eli has attacked my 2nd dear son AGAIN. I have posted about this before. Eli is 7, dear son is TWENTY-TWO! Eli has known DS since he was a puppy and DS has NEVER teased or abused Eli. The first attack was several years ago over a pig's ear. No more pig's ears. There have been a couple of attacks since. They seem to be territorial or competeting for my affection, which is ridiculous to me but perhaps not to a Cairn. It seems to come out of nowhere, shocking the heck out of us and Eli seems very confused afterwards. We intervene swiftly and firmly. The attack on Christmas day was particularly distressing. DS was helping me in the kitchen when Eli attacked him out of the blue. He left punctures on both thighs. I think Eli thought DS was too close to the cupboard that has the bully sticks. I will not be buying bulk bully sticks anymore as he knows where they are and has been demanding them and obviously protective of the area. DS has not lived with me for 4 years and visits rarely. I guess I will have to lock Eli up when he is around. I am really upset about this. My DS is nothing but kind and gentle and Eli loves him when he isn't attacking him. I have another DS who has never been attacked.

I HATE knowing that my otherwise sweet and funny Cairn can go all Cujo on my son.

Eli's frustrated Upright

[Idaho Cairns]

"We intervene swiftly and firmly."

What did you do to or with the dog when he attacked?

[mrseggcup]

We separate the two, lots of yelling ensues, and Eli is banished to the garage. I guess I should be rolling him over and holding him down but he's pretty scary when he's going all Cujo. I am afraid he will bite me if I do the Alpha thing.

[Ivysmom]

There has to be a trigger. With Ivy, she has her CUJO moments with other dogs when she is on a leash. When she is off leash, she is the sweetest thing. Go figure. It's like she is two different dogs. Try to tie all of her aggressions together and see if there might be a common thread. I think putting him in the garage is a good idea. Cairns hate to be separated. Don't give up-good luck.

[Idaho Cairns]

"I guess I should be rolling him over and holding him down but he's pretty scary when he's going all Cujo."

That I understand--Cairns are fast and can be strong little bundles but unless you find a way to reestablish "the rules" with this dog, you are going to continue to have this behavior with him. Dogs are domesticated animals and most of the "wild" behaviors can, from time to time, be tolerated--barking, growling, chewing things they shouldn't, making messes, etc. but the one thing that absolutely cannot be tolerated is attacking a human being--especially to the point of drawing blood. The behavior will not stop magically once it starts because it is dominance, completely natural and normal motivation for a dog and until you take back control, make the dog understand that you and any other human is alpha, then it is likely to continue to be a problem.
I would roll one of my dogs under these circumstances, immediately, no matter what the likely response of the dog, even if he came at me and I would hold it in position until it submitted to me--I know of no other way, in my experience, that you can "teach" a dog not to attack--especially if those attacks are directed at only one person in the family.
If you ascribe any other motivation other than dominance, to what the dog is doing, ie, "he is jealous" or "protecting his treats" to the behavior, then you are wasting your time. One thing is absolute--no matter the reason, the behavior must stop. It will not until you take control.

Edited by Idaho Cairns, 27 December 2011 - 08:54 AM.

[hheldorfer]

Ditto what Idaho said.

Your comment that you didn't want to roll him because "he's pretty scary when he's going all Cujo" tells me that you are afraid of Eli when he's in this state and I'll bet he knows it, too. By not asserting your dominance you're allowing him to get the upper hand and control the situation. If you're worried about being bitten (and who wouldn't be, with those big Cairn jaws snapping?), keep a pair of heavy leather work gloves handy that you can put on quickly.

Good luck and I sure hope your son heals quickly!

[BetsyNoodle]

I am so sorry this has happened to your son. It is so distressing when a beloved pet attacks a family member. I don't always agree with Cesar Millan but he had an episode about something like this a couple of years ago. A woman had a chihuahua that would intermittently and unexpectedly attack her son if she and her son were in close proximity. The episode was about setting firm limits with the dog while the son was around BEFORE the biting/aggression occurred. Cesar showed that the dog did indeed send subtle signals when the mom and son were together before each attack. I do not recall Cesar rolling the dog during this episode, but he did "poke" the dog to get his attention, and then immediately separated the dog from the mother and son. The dog appeared to be getting all of his power from his proximity to the mom, so immediate separation was KEY. The dog was then reintroduced a few minutes later when he appeared a bit more submissive. It is interesting that Eli does this to only one of your sons. Cesar told the mother that the dog likely had learned through subtle cues from her that he ruled the roost, especially when it came to that particular son. This may not be your situation, but it sounds so similar. I don't know if Dog Whisperer episodes are available online, but it sure might help to watch this episode if it is.

Regarding Eli "demanding" bully sticks, I would put an end to that behavior, but I would not get rid of the bully sticks. I would make that cupboard (and the entire kitchen when you are working in it) an Eli-free zone. My husband did this when our Lab, Gracie, started "demanding" treats from her "treat" cupboard. Imagine a 75 lb. dog jumping up and down in the air by the cupboard when you are trying to cook! It is so much more peaceful -and safe- in my kitchen now!

I do believe this problem can be solved, but it will take a bit of work and lots of firm limit setting for Eli. As others have said, you have to be the limit-setter or the dog will almost always push the envelope. Cesar worked with the mother and son together, but the son still lived with the mother. This may not be practical for you since your son rarely visits. Whatever you decide to do (crate and/or limit set), I am wishing you, your son, and Eli the best.

Edited by BetsyNoodle, 27 December 2011 - 01:19 PM.

[mrseggcup]

Wow. You guys are amazing! And your assessment and advice is right on. I totally agree.

The problem with this problem is that DS rarely visits an when he does, the visits are short. When he does, would it help to have DS roll him and hold him down? Not sure he will do it; now he is afraid of Eli which I know contributes to the problem but who can blame him for feeling that way. I crated Eli when he was a pup but I got rid of it a long time ago. I'm starting to think that the garage is the best option since he visits so rarely. Heck, he'll probably never visit me again.

I hate this problem.

[BetsyNoodle]

I know this is so hard. Cesar had the Mom do the limit-setting (poking quickly at the dog's neck or using a hissing sound to get the dog's attention, and temporarily banishing/removing the dog) since Cesar's hypothesis was that the chihuahua thought he was more valuable to the woman than her son. By HER doing the disciplining/setting the limits, it sent a clear message to the dog that SHE was not going to tolerate the aggression, period. The son also learned to set these limits, but only after the mom laid down the law. But, here's the deal: the woman was only able to intervene after she (with Cesar's help) was able to identify the signs of impending aggression by the dog. The next time your son comes over, I would play private eye and, without making it obvious to Eli, I would watch his every move around your son. You may be surprised to see some signs of hyperarousal that you never noticed before. This is when you can redirect Eli, before the aggression occurs.

Keep us posted.

~Melissa

Edited by BetsyNoodle, 27 December 2011 - 04:17 PM.

[bradl]

I very much like the idea of intervening before the event takes place. Sometimes letting a dog drag a leash is a good way to give you immediate response options -- for instance stepping on a leash to stop a charge.

My personal opinion: having your son roll Eli would be a terrible idea.

[pkcrossley]

sounds like one of those situations where everybody has to be retrained --you, DS and eli. in some ways this sounds like typical terrier stuff. eli's big plan was evidently to train you and DS to react in some way to a signal he wanted to use to intimidate your or DS, but somebody isn't noticing the signal so he goes straight to the punishment part. he is probably wondering why you aren't catching on. it is absolutely right on that you have to turn the tables on him as soon as he tries to give you the signal, whatever it is (they usually use the lip curl, low growl or evil eye). get all over him as soon as he tries to give you the signal. making him move off and sit might be effective (has worked with my terriers who got these plans in their heads).

i agree with brad, having DS get physical with eli would probably be a seriously wrong move. you need to be the alpha here. eli has to understand that he simply can't try to put the whammy on anybody in your house. he probably has a reason for singling out DS. since he is your younger son, eli might have picked up on the fact that DS is "outranked" by others in the household, or he might have zeroed in on some way in which you treat your son differently from others, or he might just be jealous. doesn't matter. find out what the signal is that he has been trying to use to intimidate you, and get all over him when he tries it. in my case i just got big with the arms and voice, got in his face with my hands, and told him to move off and sit down till i said he could move. it worked, but who knows what will work with eli.

[Idaho Cairns]

I would be skeptical of the "signal" thing. I have had experience with a Cairn that attacked other dogs--my Daughters first Cairn and can tell you that there was no signal of any kind before she made her move. We could never anticipate when she would go off--she would let a dog near her time after time and then, bam, on that one out of a thousand timnes, she made her move. Some dogs telegraph and others don't so you might have a well chewed son before figure out any preliminary action to take.
Hopefully your son is the only object of this dog's need to dominate but I have a sense that if the dog attacks one human it perceives to be weak, it may well try it with another person in your home--and I bet you have the same concern. Clearly you can't expect a guest in your home take direct action against your pet but should your son visit again, I would certainly discuss with him the idea that HE might actually want to roll the dog himself since he is one that is being dominated by the dog. Your Eli, might well respect you, your husband, and your other son but still try to dominate this one member of the family--that is not an unknown situation with pets. Whether he wants or is able to take direct action is a whole different matter--nothing worse than a half-a..ed attempt to control a dog under those circumstances but I would certainly not allow the dog to dictate the terms of a parent child relationship--not when the matter can be corrected.

[BetsyNoodle]

Dominance is still a term that is used by many layman when the issue of aggression rears it's ugly head in their pups, so I thought some of you might find these articles interesting. The study of animal behavior is a rapidly evolving field which has produced excellent articles. My cousin and her husband, both of whom are companion animal veterinarians and own two terriers and a Doberman, recently sent me these links that challenge our long-held beliefs on dominance. Mrs.Seggcupp, you might find them helpful. Behaviorists and veterinarians are now often recommending positive reinforcement, understanding motivation behind the behavior, and so on.
http://abrionline.or...icle.php?id=226

The links inside this link are also excellent reads.

But, if I may, IdahoCairns, I would not roll a dog

[Idaho Cairns]

Many believe, as you do, that an owner shouldn't roll a dog--I've seen the videos and the stretch that is made to psychoanalyze the dog behavior. However, I have employed the roll with my dogs and have corrected dominate behavior quickly, permanently, and with no apparent lasting hand shyness in my Cairns. I want to put emphasis on the term "quickly"--I don't have to correct the dog often using the roll, it seems if they learn what they need to learn really fast and that really is better than prolonged frustration with misbehavior for me and the dog. I have watched dogs interact for years, they use the roll to express dominance and what is effective for them, is good for me.
I simply believe the shortest route to behavior modification is the best route, especially for my dogs and myself. I use it because it works and works as permanently as any method I know of. However, there are other roads an owner can take.
So far as I know, there is no domestic dog behavior training programs extant in American or Foreign Universities and no long term domestic dog behavior studies ever done--plenty for exotic/wild animals, wolves, gorillas, large cats, elephants, etc. but domestic dogs, none.
I don't even know what an "animal behaviorist" is or what qualifications one has to have to call one self a "dog behaviorist".
However, I would never suggest that rolling is the only way to get from a to z with a Cairn and the last thing I would tell anyone to do if they were uncomfortable with the technique.

Edited by Idaho Cairns, 27 December 2011 - 10:00 PM.

[BetsyNoodle]

Sorry, Idaho, I was not finished with my post to you, hence no period at the end of that last sentence. I hope this is not too off topic. I do believe the more we learn about the behavior of our pups, the better it is for them and us.

To continue, I enjoy reading your writings and find your approach very practical and helpful. But, this is one area in which we do not agree. I would imagine one of the reasons you are successful at "the roll" is that perhaps you do it as Cesar does: in a calm and assertive manner. My feeling is that most people would be so traumatized at being bitten by a pet that they would be far from calm and assertive, and any attempt to roll the dog could be disastrous. I think this is why when Cesar rolls an aggressive dog he warns individuals that attempting to do the same without training can result in injury.

I don't think it is possible to psychoanalyze a dog's behavior, but I do believe one can observe and document precursors that lead to aggressive behavior in canines.

If you google various veterinary colleges you will find that there is quite a bit of on-going research in the area of canine behavior and aggression in various settings. I would agree that it is much easier to do longitudinal studies on wolf packs, as domestic canine packs are harder to come by and, understandably, it would be a lot more difficult to control the variables in each "pack" household. After all, who wants a behavioral scientist living in their home for years to monitor their dogs' behavior? Feral dog packs are notoriously difficult to track, but, nevertheless, attempts have been made. But, in my opinion, the lack of longitudinal canine research data does not diminish the significance of the data that has been collected in short term studies. Many of these studies have been published in peer-reviewed veterinary journals.

Texas A&M University has an Animal Behavior program. It focuses on domestic and companion animals, but I have been told that one can continue on and specialize in companion animal behavior. I have also been told that certification for animal behaviorists is a bit tricky, and has a ways to go.