18 replies to this topic

[Ivysmom]

Well, I am in a dilemma and could use some help. I have had a trainer come work with Ivy at our home and then she participated in a good dog class with the same trainer. At home, Ivy is somewhat reactive to other dogs walking by, people walking by, ups man coming to the door---that sort of stuff really makes her bark. At home we tried some things-all positive in nature that seemed to help. Ivy (age 1) picked up and learned the basic commands relatively easy. She doesn't always choose to follow them but at least she knows them. I then took her to a class with 5 other dogs. Ivy was the most reactive. She barked a lot at first but would quiet down after 10 minutes. She was able to do the commands again in class. Her trouble seemed to be when introducing her, on leash, to other dogs. She seemed very reactive and almost like she may be in an attack mode. The trainer never let her get close to another dog. At home, once while going for a walk on leash, she did make an unfriendly lunge towards another dog. I pulled her back.

Now, here is where I become confused. I told the trainer(s) that I was taking Ivy along with our other dog, a golden retriever, to my in-laws for Thanksgiving. Well, everyone in the family has dogs and everyone brings them (for a total of 7 dogs). It has always been fun (not too sure how my mother-in-law feels about it) but the rest of us love it. Anyway, this is the first time bringing Ivy. The trainers both told me that I shouldn't do it-she is way to reactive and it will be very bad for her emotionally. It could set back her training. She needs to be kept separated. Well, I didn't listen. Ivy did great. She got along with every other dog. The one large female dog who is very gentle (the only other female dog by the way) did growl at Ivy a couple of times and it did scare her a little but nothing else. She turned out to be a pleasure. She ran in the backyard, played and had an overall great time. I was so worried ahead of time, so I purchased a little cloth muzzle in case she might start biting other dogs. I guess I will throw that away.

I am now scheduled to take Ivy to a class for overreactive dogs-already paid for. Any thoughts? I really like the trainers. They are both very positive and never teach to use anything negative on dogs. I don't know if these classes are too overwhelming for her or just keeping her controlled on a leash is upsetting to her. I didn't have this problem with my last cairn so I am at odds as to what I should do. She was a completely different dog at Thanksgiving that she is at her training classes

[Idaho Cairns]

I will give you my opinion, which isn't shared by everyone by the way. Dogs learn to socialize with other dogs in unfettered environments where they can sort things out by themselves without human intervention, or minimal human intervention. I am all for letting dogs get themselves into and out of relationships on their own, save those very rare situations where there is viciousness bordering on injury likely. I believe Cairns to be among the most flexible and adjustment prone of breeds--you can safely take them into almost any environment with the assurance that they will fit right in--your experience at home with six other "strange" dogs is no surprise to me--I have seen it over and over in my dogs' behaviors.
Why would the trainers give you that advice? Not familiar with Cairns? Not familiar with how dogs interact outside of a rigidly controlled environment like a training class? Trying to build a lucrative dependence on surrogate training? Who knows?
I still believe an unleashed and open dog park is the best possible training ground for Cairn Terriers when it comes to socialization with other dogs. Add that experience with a lot of common sense discipline training on the part of the owner--trial and error stuff and you can build yourself a quite nice little bundle of Cairn Terrier on your own.

[LizzieP]

I agree with Idaho. We camp every year in the Sierras with the same group of families and have been doing this for over 25 years. We have always brought our dogs as does everyone else. Now that the kids are grown, they are bringing their dogs...this year there were NINE dogs running amok. They ranged in size from a tiny Boston Terrier to a huge Akita/Pit Bull mix at 100 lbs. There was one brief scuffle that the dogs settled themselves but all got along great and were thrilled to be running free and making new friends. My two always do great with other dogs as long as they are not on a leash. They are not aggressive while on their leash but they do give a "back off me buster" bark if a large dog gets to close while we are walking.

Do I need to say who was the pack leader of this herd of dogs in the Sierras? You guessed it...our cairns were the unofficial leaders of the Sierra Nine!

[Tuesday]

Sounds like you answered your own questions with your Thanksgiving visit. Ditch the trainer and use the money saved to buy Ivy her weight in bully sticks.

With all due respect it sounds like your trainer is feeding you a line and has you believing you need something that you really don't. It's quite disheartening, really.

[cairnsby3]

Since you like the trainers and the class is paid for, I would go and use it to work on Ivy focusing on you when other dogs are on leash. See if you can get rid of the 10 minutes of barking and get her to ignore the other dogs.

[IGotAHome]

I would hang on to that muzzle. I saved the one from my last dog. I used it when trimming his nails. You could do anything else to that dog except touch his paws, then he would bite. The muzzle is useful with Malcolm when I need to handle him and he doesn't want to be handled. If there is an injury you may need to muzzle the dog in order to inspect the injury.

In another post you mentioned the trainers thought Ivy might be feeling insecure. There used to be a forum of mostly dog breeders. They thought the same thing about Malcolm, that he was insecure and fighting to be the alpha dog. They suggested teaching him right away that I was the alpha and show him his place. For example no sleeping on the bed, no sitting in my chair, waiting for me to go out the door first, walking by my side, etc etc. All the usual dog training techniques. None of them were Cairn breeders and needless to say none of this worked. Your trainers sound like they know what they are doing with normal dogs. Cairns are not normal dogs though. I've mentioned this before, you need to find a cat trainer to work with a Cairn.

I'm glad Ivy was well behaved even though the trainers thought she wouldn't. The trainers are judging her according to their experience with "normal" dogs. They don't know that Cairn's love to make liars out of their owners. I took Malcolm to the groomers one time and brought the muzzle. The groomer had a Cairn before, put Malcolm on the table and Malcolm behaved beautifully. Here I was ready to put the muzzle on him, instead he was a little angel. Maybe he sensed the groomer knew how to handle a Cairn. Anyway, I was thinking the worst and it didn't happen, just like your trainers were expecting the worst and it didn't happen.

If you are making some progress I say stick with the trainers. Sounds like they understand "normal" dogs. The only place I've encountered specialists on Cairns is on this forum.

BTW, Malcolm is sitting here wanting me to scratch his chin. He tilts his head back and stretches out his neck for a good scratch under the chin just like a cat. I wouldn't be surprised if he started purring.

[Ivysmom]

Thanks for the input. Ivy goes to the trainers this Friday evening. I can't wait to tell them just how good she was. She totally cracks us up all the time. One never knows what to expect from her-she is always busy just like a toddler. She can get into a hundred things in just a few minutes. Sometimes, when I think she won't listen, she does exactly what I say. Guessing her next move is next to impossible.

[pkcrossley]

" I've mentioned this before, you need to find a cat trainer to work with a Cairn."

ha ha, agreed. cairns are dogs and on some level they respond to training like all dogs, but the other parts of their brains --the parts that drive them to make their own rules and look after themselves without human help-- interfere in ways that don't happen with labs or shepherds. i've known trainers who just tear their hair out trying to deal with terriers. trainers know how to teach commands, which terriers learn very quickly, but they are less good at understanding why a dog who knows a command perfectly well simply decides to not do it. a friend who is a dog trainer remarked the other day that when she saw a terrier coming she wanted to hide behind the door. i said i had two cairns and she rolled her eyes. "the worst!" she said.

[Kathryn]

She rolled her eyes. "the worst!" she said.

I certainly hope she discloses this in any promotional brochures. We finally, a few years ago and after two decades of cairn ownership, found a trainer who not only understands terriers, but likes them. Even though she owns and trains border collies. She is actually almost as creative at finding ways to train cairns as they are at finding ways to avoid being trained.

[cairnsby3]

Ivysmom, one thing that might help, is to take her for a nice long walk or go play ball (if she likes that) before you go to class. Hopefully that will help her focus on you.

[dianer]

I've read all the responses and they were all so good that I didn't think I had anything to add however I did see an interesting program last night that featured a trainer. Her approach includes what is "going on with the other end of the leash" AKA you the owner of the dog.

http://www.pbs.org/w...ats-yours/4626/

I thought she had some valid points. Even though cairns are independent, they are also responsive to their humans.

Edited by dianer, 01 December 2011 - 10:09 AM.

[Ivysmom]

Thanks dianer-I watched the program and it was very interesting. I know that Ivy is so smart that she can sense when I am nervous about her behavior. It is funny but she is so much more responsive to my calm dh than she is with me.

[finncaraid]

After Finn was born but before he came here to live, I got the book "When Pigs Fly: Training Success With Impossible Dogs". The author is a terrier lover & trainer so it's geared to dogs that are of an independent mindset. I've read this book cover to cover several times & reference it constantly. I believe it made all the difference in the world in training Finn & just living with him everyday. Can't recommend this book enough. The training she teaches you is to teach a dog that thinks for itself in a way they understand. And it works- as Finn has matured, he's more than happy to do what we ask. Not necessarily instantly but within a minute. I call that success

[Ivysmom]

Finncaird-within a minute's time with a cairn is total success. Tonight is Ivy's first reactive dog class. Now that I know she can behave around other dogs, maybe my attitude will be more positive and in turn be more helpful to Ivy. Honestly, she is more work than my kids but I wouldn't have it any other way. She has the biggest heart. When I am upset sometimes, she knows and is right there sitting on my lap. It is amazing how smart these little creatures really are.....

[Ivysmom]

Well, I took Ivy to the reactive dog class tonight There are 4 dogs. We have to tether them to the wall-one in each corner. There are also barriers set up so the dogs can't see one another. The minute a dog barks or growls or whines, Ivy begins barking loudly. I am then told to take her to the corner of the wall until she can calm down. I am so confused at this point. I think she hates being restrained and not allowed to see anything. Honestly, I am just trying to do the right thing, but whenever i go to the trainer, she is always made out to look like the bad dog and she really isn't. At home, she couldn't be more loving. Yes, she BARKS.......Yes, she overreacts when people come to the door. I know I need to work on these things but I think the training is making it worse. I have seen her around other dogs-unleashed-and she is fine. My sister-in-law suggested I take Ivy to a doggy day care or a dog park where she is off leash. Any thoughts........