19 replies to this topic

[IGotAHome]

After reading Meggie's and Ivysmom's topics I have to add Malcolm to the list of difficult to walk dogs.

I have arthritis in my back due to a fractured vertebra from a fall that happened long ago. It's ok as long as I don't aggravate it. Malcolm's middle name is aggravation. (I wonder if there is Gaelic word for aggravating?) At the park Malcolm pulls on the leash constantly. He is the only dog I know that can choke himself wearing a harness. There have been days when I can't take him out because my back is sore.

I can understand a dog wanting to chase squirrels, that is normal. Malcolm loves to chase the squirrels and almost runs right up the trees after them. He also shoots like a bullet when he spots one. I've come home with an aching wrist a few times. If that was all it would be fine, I can deal with it. But Malcolm wants to chase and attack other dogs and people.

This is what I've tried to tame the little wild beast. When I first got him and took him to the park I would just stop, grab the leash and hold him next to my side saying NO! I thought he would calm down. LOL I was so naive, thinking a Cairn would calm down, boy did I have a lot to learn. I held him for about 10 minutes at a time. He struggled so much I thought well lets get some of this energy out of him. So we would walk, stop, struggle, walk, stop, struggle. Yep I was really naive thinking a Cairn would run out of energy.

Most training guides suggest holding the dog on a short leash by your side so the dog is not leading you, you are leading the dog. Supposedly you are the alpha and deciding where to go, the dog following your lead. This didn't work either. Malcolm pays no attention to me. He is not going to follow my lead when he doesn't even consider I am there. I'm like this anchor he is dragging around.

Then I found this forum and learned about holding them on their back and waiting for them to submit. In a harness that is not hard you can get a good grip. I could hold him for about 10 mins saying in a normal voice "calm down calm down". Being hunched over is not good for my back, 10 mins is all I can last. Malcolm will never stop struggling. So here we are, a 16 lb. dog does in a 175 lb. man. What is he timing this? He must figure ok 10 mins is all that old man can last then he gives up. How long should I hold him? 15 mins? 1 hour? Should I pack a lunch, bring a lawn chair and plan to spend the day?

I tried the set an example approach. I enlisted the aid of the regular dog walkers in the park. The plan was to ignore Malcolm (how's that for a turn of events, ignore the Cairn!) When we saw another dog approaching and they saw us we would just walk right on by and not pay any attention to each other. Nothing to see here little doggie just keep going. The man with the Cane Corso (Malcolm's favorite target) was very happy to walk on by and I'm sure the Corso was too. Malcolm loves to torment that gentle giant. Another plan foiled. Malcolm always wants to attack and sometimes we get the Cairn screech. One day a man said "That dog is dangerous."

I'd like for him to be friendly with humans. We were making progress. Mike is a retired guy who likes to jog. He loves dogs. Mike would come up to Malcolm and try to make friends. At first Malcolm would bark and lunge at Mike. Then he got used to seeing Mike and let Mike pet him. One day Mike put his hand down to pet Malcolm. Malcolm snapped and bit his hand. I was shocked, "Oh no did he bite you?" Mike said he got a little nip, nothing serious. I pulled Malcolm next to my leg growling at him saying "BAD DOG BAD DOG!" I might have got through a little, Malcolm actually looked at me instead of totally ignoring me. Then it was back to looking for something to attack.

Malcolm does like my neighbor because he gives Malcolm treats. I should have named this dog Capone. He is a regular 1930's Chicago gangster. If my neighbor wants to take out his garbage without losing a foot just pay the street tax and there will be no problems. I'll have Mike give treats to Malcolm now and see if we can make peace.

I tried treats at the park. This is where a Cairn can drive you totally nuts. At home Malcolm will do anything for a treat. He will instantly stop whatever he is doing for a treat. At the park he could care less about a treat. I can't figure this out. I can hold a treat and try to get his attention. Nope, he ignores me as usual. He can be pulling on the leash. I say treat and hold one in my hand. He keeps pulling. If I put the treat right in front of his face so he has to see I have a treat he gobbles it up and goes right back to pulling on the leash. He is like a Jeckyl and Hyde. At home he is pretty good. He has learned sit, down, and come in. He gets a stubborn streak every now and then. He pulls the "I've suddenly gone deaf" routine. Most of the time he listens. At the park he is a different dog. He doesn't listen at all. He must have a super high prey drive that blocks out all else.

Well, training a dog is all about training the owner so there is still something I'm not doing right or not doing enough of. I'll keep trying. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

[Rohnda]

We have a plastic choke collar that is used on Luigi only for walks. I was skeptical but it works great. He tows (or is that toes) the line when wearing it. If he pulls (the collar) is a gentle reminder that he needs to come back in line with us. My husband got it on at Amazon.com

[_whits_]

I can't speak to the biting and aggression towards other walkers, because I haven't had that problem with Addie. I can speak to having a bad back and a Cairn that pulls to the point of making an already painful back even more unbearable.

I would think that getting him under control on the leash would do a little to stem some of the aggression, or at least prevent him from being able to reach the person he wants to attack.

Addie has been almost impossible to walk since the day I brought her home because she just pulls, pulls, pulls. And she kept doing it, despite verbal corrections, treats, and every basic leash training I could think of, like stopping until she stopped pulling (that moment never came). The trainer Addie works with came up with a number of options, all of which might be useful for Malcolm (but only one of which worked for Addie and I). Here they are:

Easy Walk Harness: There are different brands, but this is the one I'm familiar with (http://www.premier.c...alk/description). It's a harness where the leash attaches to the chest instead of between the shoulders. It's meant to direct them better by exerting pressure on the breastbone area. I think this would have worked really well with Addie, except for the fact that she has really short legs and managed to wiggle out of it very easily (one of her main walk problems was purposely falling to the ground and flailing around). If Malcolm has super short legs too, it might not work but otherwise I've heard great things about this harness.

Gentle Leader. Once again, there are different brands, but this is the one iIknow (https://www.premier....spx?cid=1&pid=1). It works by having a strap around the dog's nose. People sometimes confuse them with muzzles, but they don't close the dog's mouth, just slip around the nose. I've also heard wonderful things about these, but Addie screamed (literally screamed) and bucked like a bronco (once again, literally) when I tried it on her.

Martingale Collar: This is the option I settled on with Addie, mostly because we'd exhausted all the others. It's a regular nylon collar, but with an addition of a loop of chain. Every time the dog pulls, the chain shortens and pulls the nylon tighter around the neck. It doesn't choke her (which makes choke chains so deadly), because it can only get a certain tightness but it does put some pressure on the neck. The dog learns that when they pulls they have to deal with an uncomfortable collar, but when they walk loosely, the collar is also loose. You do have to be careful about fitting though, because they can get too tight and therefore dangerous if fitted improperly.

Addie and I have been walking with the martingale for about a month now and it's like I have a completely different dog. She's improved about 95%, to the point where I can hardly feel her on the leash now.

[Meggie]

Other than the aggression, this sounds so familiar! I don't have much to add because we haven't tackled the pulling issue although it has decreased by saaaay 15% (by me kneeling down next to him and quietly saying his name as though I'm offended or feigning a gasp of shock) but Hubble also ignores all food when outdoors. He's over stimulated by all the sights and sounds.

My next step (this is going to sound kooky) is to give him problem solving games to tire his brain out before walks. Putting a treat under a cup etc...see if this alleviates it a touch, since physically tiring them out doesn't work.

Hub also does the submissive on the back move now with out even having to be pinned...we naively assumed "Success!" but realized he just figured out "Oh If I stay on my back long enough, I avoid being scolded and can go back to pulling now!" he's just manipulating us.

Hubble, like your Malcolm is also amazing at home! But out and about? People giggle at our feeble attempts to correct him

As we all address our similar issues I hope we can post and try out each others approaches! I hope in the meantime, your back isn't treating you too poorly, especially since it's getting colder xoxo

EDIT: Thanks for the links _whits_!! I'm checking them out! I'm excited to try out something with a cairn stamp of approval on it.

Edited by Meggie, 17 November 2011 - 11:34 PM.

[Hawkeye]

_whits_, on 17 November 2011 - 10:39 PM, said:

Easy Walk Harness: There are different brands, but this is the one I'm familiar with (http://www.premier.c...alk/description). It's a harness where the leash attaches to the chest instead of between the shoulders. It's meant to direct them better by exerting pressure on the breastbone area. I think this would have worked really well with Addie, except for the fact that she has really short legs and managed to wiggle out of it very easily (one of her main walk problems was purposely falling to the ground and flailing around). If Malcolm has super short legs too, it might not work but otherwise I've heard great things about this harness.

Gentle Leader. Once again, there are different brands, but this is the one iIknow (https://www.premier....spx?cid=1&pid=1). It works by having a strap around the dog's nose. People sometimes confuse them with muzzles, but they don't close the dog's mouth, just slip around the nose. I've also heard wonderful things about these, but Addie screamed (literally screamed) and bucked like a bronco (once again, literally) when I tried it on her.

I can give you a review on two out of the three mentioned above.

Bailey & Radar both like to pull while on walks and I have tried the Easy Walk Harness and will swear by it. It really works well with them. Neither of mine have wiggled their way out of it and walk by our sides. Bailey will still be a step or so in front but he's happy walking and looking around.
The Gentle Leader did not work for us. Putting the strap around the muzzle was awful and rather than walking they would claw at the strap and wrestle with it. My previous cairn actually got blood because she just kept rubbing her face against the pavement.

Radar was showing some aggression at first while walking by people and dogs, but we were able to resolve the problem with treats and having him focus on us. Sorry that this did not work for Malcolm.

I did have a trainer come to our home and work with us and she recommended the prong collar. I am hesitate in mentioning this, but we did use it for a bit and helped get him to slow down. First you must be trained how to use it so they do not get hurt. He learned to walk by our side and not be so excitable. After a couple of months we graduated to either the Easy walker harness or a plan harness and he is doing much better.

Hope you can find a solution so Malcolm and you can enjoy your walks.

[dianer]

Sounds like lots of great advice. Cassie used to pull until I put a gentle leader on her then she stopped. Problem is my husband won't use it. Since we now walk both dogs on a Y leader with harnesses I have to deal with twice the pulling. . DH doesn't think they pull very hard but I can't physically handle it since I put my hip out of place in September. ( They didn't cause that, I just changed directions too quickly here at home in the hallway). Now DH walks them twice a day and I just take them to the dog park. Last time I walked them I took my daughters electric scooter.

About the aggression thing, I think you may find that Malcolm is MORE aggressive on the leash than off. It sounds strange I know, but I had a dog aggressive cairn and it was absolutely the case. I think he felt confined and vulnerable with the collar and leash on and it added to his insecurities.
This may not be helpful information. You probably know best if he is a fear based dog or an alpha boss.

[Ivysmom]

I too have tried the method of laying Ivy on her side. I can sit there all day and she doesn't calm down. Last week, we went for a run. After 1 mile, I ran into a friend with her dog. Ivy still had plenty of energy to show aggression and attempted to attack the old and blind dog. I am at my wits end. Tonight, I am taking Ivy to a trainer that uses five of her own dogs to help dogs with aggression. I hope this works!! I am thinking the trainer may have met her match..Ivy has so many great qualities-I am determined to help her become more balanced around other dogs...

[_whits_]

Hawkeye, on 18 November 2011 - 08:07 AM, said:

I did have a trainer come to our home and work with us and she recommended the prong collar. I am hesitate in mentioning this, but we did use it for a bit and helped get him to slow down. First you must be trained how to use it so they do not get hurt.

I second what Hawkeye says here. I would HIGHLY suggest seeing a trainer before using a martingale or prong collar or anything similar just because there's a danger of hurting the dog if they aren't fitted and used properly.

And I would definitely NOT suggest a choke collar. I worked at a vet, and those things have caused more injuries than I care to remember.

[IGotAHome]

Meggie : Hub also does the submissive on the back move now with out even having to be pinned...we naively assumed "Success!" but realized he just figured out "Oh If I stay on my back long enough, I avoid being scolded and can go back to pulling now!"

lol, these dogs are so darn smart aren't they.

_whits_ : And I would definitely NOT suggest a choke collar. I worked at a vet, and those things have caused more injuries

Yep. The first time I put a choke collar on Malcolm we made it half way down the block. He was choking himself so bad we turned around and went home. I put the harness on him and have used that ever since.

Ivysmom : I hope this works!! I am thinking the trainer may have met her match..

I can't afford a trainer. Even if I could I'm not sure it would help. Maybe it would but living with Malcolm I've thrown out everything I knew about dogs and started from scratch to understand this breed. They are not like any other dog I've known and the usual training techniques simply don't work. I've never been totally ignored by a dog and can't get his attention at the park. Seems that is the holy grail of Cairn training, trying to get their attention.

[dianer]

A trainer gave up on us mid class years back. Said, "well aren't you little mister independent!" and never addressed us again.

[Ivysmom]

Well we met with the trainer alone tonight (no other dogs). Ivy was careful not to get too close to her at first. She over time had her quietly come to her. She gave some tips. For one thing, since Ivy expects lots of attention, when she is bad (for example, she doesn't come when called), don't scold or continue to coax her..simply give her the cold shoulder. It seemed to work. Ivy doesn't take kindly to lack of attention. She became very concerned when I ignored her. We will address the aggression issue in class with the other dogs but she did say it appears that Ivy may seem somewhat afraid and is just trying to hide her insecurities. Who knows....Ivy may be fooling all of us. I will let you know what we do in class to help with he being a "reactive" dog in social situations.

[Meggie]

IGotAHome, on 18 November 2011 - 08:08 PM, said:

I can't afford a trainer. Even if I could I'm not sure it would help. Maybe it would but living with Malcolm I've thrown out everything I knew about dogs and started from scratch to understand this breed. They are not like any other dog I've known and the usual training techniques simply don't work. I've never been totally ignored by a dog and can't get his attention at the park. Seems that is the holy grail of Cairn training, trying to get their attention.

It's true. I've worked with pitbulls, rotties all the big power breeds and had easier times getting them to focus than this rascal.

Have you tried googling techniques? There must be resources!

Or again, as we all delve into our training sessions, maybe we can have a tutorial thread about we've learned since we're all working on the same issue. You can have a trainer bi-proxy!

Before I commit to a trainer (since the consultation left a bad taste in my mouth) I'm going to look into the harnesses. A friend of mine ( a dog trainer where my Mom lives) just opened a pet supply place! I get a harness and to support his new mom and pop shop and maybe a few free tips!

[pkcrossley]

just had a look at your profile to remind myself of malcolm's age. seems like he is about 2 1/2, is that right? just thinking in terms of what was happening on another thread, and your comment that "getting his attention" is the key. you are on the cusp of the sort of change of life for cairns where it does in fact become easier to get their attention. keep on keeping on and you will probably find that it will begin to work, perhaps within a just a few months. it might not matter what you try --whatever you try is bound to start improving things within the timeframe. malcolm is about to emerge from the terrible twos.

which doesn't mean all the other stuff about cairn traits isn't true. you do have to throw the book away and let whatever works with your dog be your guide.

[finncaraid]

Lately, Finn has gotten way better when out for our daily 2 mile trek. Previously, he would either run ahead to the end of the retractable leash & then gag himself in a harness or he would lag so far behind, I'd have to practically drag him to catch up to me. What I started doing was stopping with the leash retracted so he was right next to me. I'd just stand there, ignoring him, until he calmed down. I always made sure I didn't have anything pressing for a long while because we might have to stop every few feet & stand there for several minutes. My terrier attitude finally won out. He's now walking like other dogs I see that aren't terriers. As far as choking himself in a harness, Finn did that with every one I tried until I found the one that's being advertised on TV. It's a soft mesh like thing but he's had it for months & hasn't gotten out of it yet.

[claymike]

I guess I am one of the lucky ones with Rudy. I never know if he is attached to the leash or not, now Mischa is a different story. I should send her up to Alaska so they could use her in the Iditarod. But my son runs two miles with her everyday so walking with me is not that much fun I guess. They both love everybody its like "I don't know you but i love you" I am glad I do not have the leash problem with Rudy, starting in March we spend over 100 nights on the road in our 5th wheel and do a lot of walks.