36 replies to this topic

[April J]

This is my first time to ever use a forum so I hope I can figure this out...

We wanted a puppy for our family particularly our son who will soon be 5. We had never heard of Cairn terriers but after reading about them thought this might be a good match as we wanted a smaller dog but not a real fragile dog to keep in the house and a breed that tends to be good with children. Pur puppies mom is full Cairn and dad is half Cairn and half poodle. Phoebe us about 8 weeks old.

I've been reading all this info about puppy do's and don'ts and have myself all worked up....different people say different things and I seem to be trying to do everything at once. Our real issue is that Phoebe started growling at me when I would pick her up to bring her inside. I would tell her no and then I started holding her by the scruff of her neck and telling her no as I read that this might be a way to deal with the issue. My biggest fear is having an aggressive little dog that bites... My son tried to pick her up as she was chewing on my shoe and she went beserk and bit him. I picked her up told her no and put her back down, my son picked her up again and she tried to bite him again. Soooo.... I'm obviously not doing something right and I just want to cry, thinking what did I get myself into.... I do not want to be an irresponsible, dumb dog owner but I feel so overwhelmed and not prepared.

I need advice....

[Idaho Cairns]

In my opinion you are doing things right. Keep reinforcing the "NO!" and "NO BITE" thing until she associates her behavior with the reprimand.
Cairns, certainly as young as your dog is, exhibit both growling and biting behavior, so what you are seeing is not uncommon to the breed--particularly for an 8 week old.
Just keep verbally punishing her and restraining her with the command you are using and she will eventually make the connection and that should be it.
Make sure the boy is involved as well, the puppy might as well learn early that she cannot bite him either--under any circumstances. Cairns will try to bluff their way thru but if you stand firm, they will accede to your demands.
Don't be afraid to grab her little mouth when she bites and shout "No!" --just wrap your hand loosely around it and look her in the eye while you do it--shouldn't take many times before she understands.
You made no mistake, they are wonderful little dogs once they are taught the rules. You will only have an aggressive little dog if you permit the behavior to continue.
Stay with us and follow up--I'd like to know how she is doing in a week or so.

[carolinaila09]

dont fret with the biting. it is sooo normal. paisley is a snapping turtle but i can tell our efforts are starting to work! its a lot of work and the main thing is to make sure you and your son and anyone else involved with the puppy reprimands her biting in the same way! paisley is now a little over 12 weeks...so i know exactly where youre coming from!!

[pkcrossley]

i agree with carolina, your dog is completely normal. this is what a cairn is like before being educated to be polite. cairns are hard-wired with a frenzy instinct that was once necessary for saving their lives when they were caught in a fight with a dangerous enemy like a badger. cairn puppies quickly learn to use the frenzy for fun and profit. a cairn that is not interfered with will frenzy whenever things don't go exactly the way he wants. your job is to interfere, and raise your puppy up to be the thoughtful, companionable lady that she has every potential to be.

congratulations on having the skill and good sense to scruff the puppy. it may be your greatest tool. you have to be quick enough to avoid being bitten, so get used to the idea that your cairn is quickly going to adjust her tactics now that she knows that you know how to scruff her. she will try her best to bite you in order to intimidate you and keep you from using your secret scruff weapon. do not at any time allow your dog to intimidate you. if she bites you and you find that you hesitate to scruff her, put a harness and short leash on her and keep it on her for a couple of weeks so that if she frenzies out you just lift her calmly in the air and take her to her time-out space. do not use physical discipline on the dog --it only makes things much worse. a cairn will be impressed with you only at the point where she realizes she can't fuss you or scare you or frustrate you or make much of an impression on you at all when she is misbehaving.

be cool, be calm. don't get worked up. when she acts up, don't reprimand her and put her back to what she was doing --that will make no impression. scruff her or otherwise gather her up and place her in a crate or in a "safe" room (a bathroom, laundry room, etc where she can't get into trouble but she can have a time-out till you release her). do not be persuaded by screaming, crying, whining, or scratching your door (resign yourself to some repair work). release her when she looks contrite. impose a comprehensive civilizing program on her. teach her "sit" and "stay," and make her do it before eating, before playing, or maybe before going out (at least when she is in the intermediate state of house-training). read up on NILIF (nothing in life is free) and impose it CONSISTENTLY. let her know that she cannot rejoin society until she starts to discipline herself.

it will be interesting to see how phoebe takes to verbal commands. if she goes to her cairn side, she will learn the commands quickly and then start to ignore them. yes, that will mean she is learning. cairns who have learned commands usually think hard about whether there is any reason to obey. keep your commands consistent and sensible. cairns don't respond well to commands given just for the sake of conditioning the dog. they resist conditioning. give commands when there is a reason to (and with a reward if necessary), and you will get a reasonable compliance rate. on the other hand, phoebe might show a pleasant poodle willingness to perform commands just to show that she is a good girl (not likely, but possible). a cairn who listens to a command, shows clearly by her body language that she understands, but then decides not to comply is not being defiant. she is just being a logical cairn.

remember that cairns (like all terriers) are extremely persistent. your puppy will not completely give up on her attempts to bully you and your son until she is completely convinced that she cannot rattle you or wear you down. once she is completely convinced, she will not waste more time on behaviors that don't produce a result. you will be on your way to raising a companionable and loyal dog. (it will take some time, cairns do not mature emotionally quite as fast as some other breeds; but in phoebe's case it is possible that her poodle ancestry will take the edge off a bit earlier).

the roadblock for you may be your son. kids and cairns play well together for long periods of time, but so long as your cairn aspires to rule the household she will consider your child easy pickings. their play should be supervised by you. your son has to learn to take his cues from you --he cannot sneak the dog treats, or let the dog get away with things that you don't allow her to get away with. this is why you need to be on hand while your puppy is being reformed, so that you can whisk the puppy away to her time-out if necessary. when in the heat of play, your puppy might be tempted to nip even when she knows better (she is a kid who sometimes can't get keep her impulses under control). when you are past the beginner stage, you should simply walk away from your puppy when she does things that she knows (make sure she knows) annoy you or offend you or hurt you. nothing stings a cairn like being ignored or rejected. your son can learn to do this, and he must do this when the puppy needs a reminder that she is out of line. he must also learn respect for dogs --don't wake them roughly when they are sleeping, don't badger or stalk them when they don't feel like playing, do respect their space. kids raised with cairns are good kids --they have to show character at an early stage.

raising a cairn is complicated, but clearly not so complicated that people can't do it, even children. but your son cannot make himself the weak link. you have to present a united front of discipline and learning for your puppy. you will be very proud of all of you --your whole family, and your cairn-- when you succeed. your goal is to be smart enough, brave enough, and fair enough that your cairn quickly comes to respect you. you'll feel it when you have turned the corner.

Edited by pkcrossley, 24 August 2009 - 01:33 PM.

[BeeBladen]

"Cairn puppies quickly learn to use the frenzy for fun and profit."

I've never heard it said better!!!

8 weeks is really young, you will get through it, just keep doing what you're doing! She will end up great, I'm sure.

[Terrier lover]

pk so well said! I would definately take his advise plus if need be wear a thick pair of workmans gloves in case the "kid" makes a direct hit! I know it can be scary when there are needle sharp little teeth catching a bare hand. Jock did the same thing as a pup but my husband stepped in and with his manly voice made a huge impression on Jock . Its wasnt long before I could just go up to Jock tell him "drop it" and he would let me take a raw meaty bone from him. We have never hit Jock or raised a hand to him, (bad thing to do to any terrier!) just the voice and the dominant down thing worked for him. He is 8 now and still occasionally growls when I do something he doesnt agree with but he would no more bite me than fly to the moon. I think as long as you keep up the good advice that PK has suggested in no time your pup will come around. Its a battle of wills in the end... and you have to win

[April J]

Thank you everyone for taking your time to give advice on our puppy. You don't know how much help it has been. This our 3rd puppy, (german shepherd, lab mix and rat terrier mix were the other 2) Neither one of them ever growled, bit or ran away from us as a puppy.

I've decided to put Phoebe on a leash and keep her with me at all times for the time being. Having an 11 month old son, puppy and almost 5 year old, it's difficult to try to keep eyes on her at all times. I think this has contributed to her sense of independence. We also are going to keep her on a schedule with exercise and food. One question I do have is if I keep her with me, how will she let me know when she needs to go poddy?

Ya'll are awesome!!!!!

[pkcrossley]

she might just do the universal puppy thing of fussing and circling. or she might do the cairn special trick of pawing you and looking into your eyes with her burning mascara-eyed stare. when he was a puppy my dog had a special whimper (sounded like jane goodall's chimp greeting) when it was time. or, when she has more independence you can teach her the bell trick (i think it is complicated to do it and not lead the dog to think you are a butler, but many many have succeeded). or at least for the immediate future you can just take her out frequently enough that she doesn't have to signal you.

Edited by pkcrossley, 25 August 2009 - 08:34 AM.

[Marty & Sherry]

Obie went through that for about 2 or 3 days. It is something that cannot be tolerated. I felt like real jerk but I would grab him by the fur on the side of his neck, pin him down on his side and get right in his face telling him "NO, NO BITE" in my sternest voice and stare him down. The real trick is to not feel so guilty that you pick them up and cuddle them immediately afterwards. I only had to do it 3 or 4 times before it sunk in. I think our 2 yo Cairn bitch helped reinforce it a couple of times too!

[Idaho Cairns]

"Obie went through that for about 2 or 3 days. It is something that cannot be tolerated. I felt like real jerk but I would grab him by the fur on the side of his neck, pin him down on his side and get right in his face telling him "NO, NO BITE" in my sternest voice and stare him down. The real trick is to not feel so guilty that you pick them up and cuddle them immediately afterwards. I only had to do it 3 or 4 times before it sunk in. I think our 2 yo Cairn bitch helped reinforce it a couple of times too! "

Ah, the voice of reason! Thank goodness there is another person that realizes that using mild force physically and verbally does not "hurt the Cairn's feelings"! This conceit that Cairns are "difficult" and "different" from other puppies is tiresome and I think perpetuated to both create a mystery about raising them and to stroke the egos of the folks that continue to inform others that they have conquered this "difficult" dog.
I have raised all kinds of dogs and actually believe Cairns much easier to train simply because Cairns are so much more intelligent than some other breeds. Don't believe that, try raising a Basset Hound or a Chessie to be good citizens!
All puppies bite, just as all human babies mouth, it is their primary tactile contact point with their new world--it does not take long for them to sort out what can and what must not be bitten. All it takes is an owner that is willing to take the matter in hand and stay with it until the behavior stops.

[DawnandTuk-tuk]

Since pk covered most of it, I would just like to underscore one point made...the kids need to learn to respect the dog. My son was 3 when we brought Tuk home and we had some clear rules. I would feed Tuk at the same time as we ate, he was then busy while we were eating gated off in our dining room with us where I could supervise him closely for signs of potty. I had strict rules of NO feeding the dog from the table (actually, the kids weren't allowed to feed Tuk until he was a little bit older and had learned some manners like how to take treats nicely from my fingers--he can now eat off a fork without touching it, we just say 'be nice'). Also, they were never ever allowed to disturb him in his crate. If he was in his crate, he was off limits. If Tuk had some sort of chew/kong or other food type of toy the kids were not allowed to touch him, but I would routinely take these things away from Tuk. Kids and dogs and food are never a good mix...its an accident waiting to happen, and you have very young children. I took the toys away to let Tuk know I was in charge, but I didn't just give and take it away to be mean, he got it for awhile but I would take it away before he finished it off. I had a little philosophy when it came to Tuk, I treated him with respect, he treated me with respect, and the kids needed to treat him with respect, he needed to treat them with respect also. When he or the kids broke the rules, mom was unhappy...no one likes it when mom's unhappy. No need to shout or spank, but when I had these rules and everyone was supposed to follow them-if it didn't happen there were consequences (usually time out for dog and kid). Now I have this great dog who is funny and smart and just the best ever! I can tell from your post you are trying so hard to do the right thing and feeling very overwhelmed. Focus in on NILIF and follow pk's suggestions, you're gonna do fine, you just have to get past this stage. You've got a very young puppy there, another big thing to remember with Cairns is you have to be more tenacious than they are. Btw, Tuk still growls at me when I take something away from him too, but he doesn't bite-he just doesn't like what I'm doing and wants to let me know about it! I get it I tell him, but I still take it away. I like it that he speaks his mind.

[pkcrossley]

i plead guilty to advising people that they may find raising cairns to be more challenging than raising some other breeds. as for the motivation, i think i have to point out that idaho's "I think [these statements are] perpetuated to both create a mystery about raising them and to stroke the egos of the folks that continue to inform others that they have conquered this "difficult" dog" doesn't really cover it. i sometimes underscore that the breed may be challenging because we have so many people come here complaining that their puppies are difficult. the dogs of such owners are at serious risk if we don't reassure such owners that, yes, sometimes cairns are especially difficult, and it does not mean that that owner's individual cairn is defective, hopeless, or otherwise off the spectrum of normality for the breed. i don't personally know why others often agree with owners who come here complaining of the difficulty of raising their puppies; i believe i agree because i wish the dog in question to have the best opportunity to stay in its home and enjoy the confidence and patience of an owner who can be reassured that the challenges he or she perceives are not symptoms of irredeemability in the dog.

to be honest, i try to say "terriers" rather than cairns, and i will certainly defend any statement that terriers are different in many ways from gun dogs, shepherds, or lap dogs. that is the point of having dog breeds. some people may indeed find terriers easier to raise than other dogs. those people may have a gift for raising terriers. people who come into the raising of a terrier after raising a dog who reacts differently to human direction may experience their dogs as difficult, and i think it is important to reassure such people that what they perceive as perversity or abnormality is actually normal for the breed, and they might change their way of thinking about it. it amounts to a simple statement of "cairns can be difficult to raise." i don't see a reason to attribute motives of self-aggrandizement to people who may just be trying to extend the chances for cairn owners and their cairns to continue their relationships, perhaps on a healthier footing. brushing off these reassurances as useless ego trips only increases the dangers to the dogs that are embedded in many of the pleas for reassurance that we get here.

[Terrier lover]

PK hands off to you for being so diplomatic. I so agree with you. Most of the dogs I have had are terriers. And yes they are totally different from any other breed out there! I think to compare them with a lab, hound or other dog breeds is a big mistake. They were bred to be the way they are.... to do a job. The very nature of being a a terrier calls to mind, aggressive, tenacious, quick, territorial and lets not forget a little killer also. Terriers certainly are not for every one. All the rescue sights for terriers breaks one heart. How many terriers go off lease, are in obedience classes etc. Not many. At least not up here in Alberta! I love the terrier breed, but also will be the first one to point out to people looking to buy a terrier pup, that this is not a lazy lump that is happy to sit at your fit. At least not the terriers I have owned.

"This conceit that Cairns are "difficult" and "different" from other puppies is tiresome and I think perpetuated to both create a mystery about raising them and to stroke the egos of the folks that continue to inform others that they have conquered this "difficult" dog."

Sorry that you (Idaho) finds some of us tiresome, but if more people researched the terrier group to begin with prior to buying one, perhaps there would be less terriers in rescue centres and pounds.

[sanford]

This certainly turned into a lively discussion!... I think Idaho Cairns' statements re ego-stroking, tiresome conceits and mystiques are a tad over-the top. In spite of that, I value many of his knowledegable and helpful contributions to this site and always look forward to seeing his postings. Double Ditto for pkcrossley. Both made some valid points, but this is obviously not an easy issue to nail down... Hence the ongoing discussions that I always look forward to!

[Tracy A.]

pkcrossley, on Aug 25 2009, 12:33 PM, said:

she might just do the universal puppy thing of fussing and circling. or she might do the cairn special trick of pawing you and looking into your eyes with her burning mascara-eyed stare.

Well this says it all! I have a string with bells attached to my front door in my vain effort to teach my boys to ring the bells when they need to Potty.... They still sit and stare at you when they want to go out.... If they really need to go you'll get the paw ...this is of course after they slowly come closer and closer to you....each time you look up a dog staring at you a few feet closer than before..LOL

I use the bells to call them to the door to go out, that's it... I think they enjoy staring at us more than rining the bells.

Mett and Bratt sounded like little tazmanian devils when they were puppies, this of course was the sounds they made when they were playing with eachother! Had me freaked out! I came to this forum thinking I had wild little puppies!
IF I had a dime for every time I said "no bite" during the first 1 year... I'd be very rich right now.
Look on the bright side, you only have 1 Cairn Puppy... not two!

Tracy

Edited by Mysticsol8, 26 August 2009 - 08:18 AM.